The Big Bang Theory is not “My People” (pt. 2)

Warning: I am not entirely satisfied with this post.

Errrg.

I had to spend today with dumbs.

At one point, someone claimed ISIS consists of militant atheists.

By the end I was about ready to chew my arm off to escape.

You know, if The Big Bang Theory were at all realistic, one of the rules in Sheldon’s roommate agreement would be that Penny isn’t allowed in his apartment. He wouldn’t be able to stand her.

“Tribe” can be a difficult concept to articulate, especially if you don’t live in an explicitly tribal society. To be an outlier (in any way) is a recipe for isolation–there’s simply no one else around like yourself. You make do, if you can. But when you finally find someone–or a whole group of someones–like yourself, it’s a wonderful moment.

These days, spending most of my time in the company of others like myself leads to a certain complacency,  but it takes only a few hours in the presence of outsiders to remind me of just how awful it is to be in a place where no one thinks like you do.

I’m not one for “who is a true X?” fights. I’m not going to debate who is and isn’t a poser. But I reserve the right to have personal opinions about whether or not we get along and how people affect group dynamics.

I think it is emotionally healthy–perhaps even necessary–to have a group of people you fit in with and whose company you enjoy.

To have such a group requires at least some awareness of the existence of your group and a willingness to define some people as inside of it and some as outside of it. This does not require hating outsiders–if anything, most people seem capable of identifying with some group or another (a local sports team, their state, people who use ham radios, etc.,) without particularly hating everyone outside of it. (For that matter, most people are quite innocently self-concerned–too busy with their own lives to really take much notice of things outside of it–and so do not really notice or know much about people outside of their own groups.)

But nerds have a habit, in my experience, of being explicitly anti-tribal. I think this is a side effect of growing up on the outside of everyone else’s tribes. When everyone else has a group of friends and you don’t, it’s pretty easy to decide that being exclusionary is wrong and immoral.

Realistically speaking, of course, there aren’t a lot of people trying to sneak into nerd spaces for inappropriate reasons–how many people are physics posers? (I am pretty sure I have been snuck to an exclusive physics lecture by someone trying to date me. Does that count as inappropriate?) But even so, group membership is not worthless. When my husband and I met and he asked me out, I was willing to give him a chance because I was vaguely familiar with him as a member of my social group. People in my group, at least, were somewhat known quantities–if he were a bad person, I likely would have heard about it or could find out quickly from a mutual acquaintance.

(A note for the unwary: sometimes your mutual acquaintances value different things in a partner than you do; sometimes people are outright liars. Tread cautiously when dealing with the opinions of others.)

Even now, I find that, “Do you look like people I have previously gotten along with?” is a pretty good metric for picking people to talk to.

Serious question, folks: Have you ever observed a correlation between “I find this person attractive” and “I enjoy talking to this person”? Not in an “I find it unpleasant to talk to ugly people because they hurt my eyes,” nor in an “I am going to be extra sympathetic to things you say because I want to have sex with you,” kind of way. More in a “Wow, how did I get so lucky that I am actually attracted to the small subset of people I can stand talking to?” My own taste in men hasn’t changed since 4th grade, which was really well before I had any idea what sorts of personality traits or political opinions or lifestyles I’d be interested in as a grown-up, and yet it has consistently served me well.

Anyway, back to politics. A few decades ago, it seems like there was more of a place for nerds in mainstream politics. Republicans liked funding projects that employ nerds, like atomic bombs, and Democrats claimed to believe in things like evolution. Even then, of course, there was a third political position that attracted a fair number of nerds: Libertarianism aka Objectivism. Heck, even the name sounds appropriate for people who are inclined toward a scientific view of the world.

Since then, both mainstream sides have turned against us. Republicans have been anti-science since at least Bush II–who ran on an explicitly anti-smart people campaign–and have been trying to prevent people from learning about the basic theories underlying modern science since approximately forever. This drove a lot of us into the “liberal” or “Libertarian” camps back in the ’90s and ’00s. Since then, though, liberalism underwent a shift, from extolling Libertarian-like meta-politics of respecting peoples’ individual rights on matters like free speech, entertainment, or religion, to the collectivist advocacy of particular group interests–groups that are, to be explicit, not nerds.

Demographically speaking, most nerds are English, German, Jewish, and East Asian men. (Most of them are also heterosexual, cisgendered, etc. etc.) Of course nerds come from all sorts of backgrounds–black, Russian, maybe even borderlands Scot. We are just talking overall numbers. But the SJW orthodoxy has been hammering, pretty explicitly, against the main nerd demographics.

To give an example: most of the nerdy and/or high IQ people I know were, circa 2000, sympathetic to feminist arguments. For that matter, when it comes to violence against women, nerds are probably among the groups least likely to commit any. Per capita, blacks, Hispanics, and lower-class whites commit much more violence. And yet, as a practical matter, people like Scott Alexander–who’s asexual, non-violent, and simply asked for advice on how to find love–or Scott Aaronsen, who confessed to feeling so terrified of the possibility of accidentally harassing someone that he became suicidal–are more likely to get attacked by feminists than folks who actually actually raped over a thousand children.

As a female nerd, I confess I find this a double insult: first you attack my people for something they aren’t guilty of, and then you refuse to defend women against the people actually raping them.

So nerds have split. Some of the old Libertarians have decided that, essentially, we can’t use a meta-ethic of treating everyone equally if some people are starting from unequal positions–that everyone has to be brought to equal positions first, and then treated equally. Others–especially those now styling themselves “Rationalists,” have stuck with the original Libertarian values but attempted to improve their ability to to deal with complex, real-world situations. And a third group–Neoreactionaries–has turned explicitly away from equality.

9 thoughts on “The Big Bang Theory is not “My People” (pt. 2)

  1. “As a female nerd, I confess I find this a double insult: first you attack my people for something they aren’t guilty of, and then you refuse to defend women against the people actually raping them.”

    As a female smart-not-really-nerd-who-tends-to-like-nerds, I agree.

    OTOH………

    Male nerds do have their flaws. And the women who do this have often experienced male nerds’ flaws up close and personal, and often haven’t with the other groups. I mean…Stephanie Tolan makes the same point about school: “The child who dreads school may only nod cynically if it turns out to be bad. The child who has looked forward to school as the fulfillment of his dreams is disappointed almost beyond bearing when it falls so desperately, incomprehensibly short.” Well. The nerdgirl who dreads jockboys (and the *atheist* nerdgirl who dreads *religious* guys) may only nod cynically when *they* turn out to be bad. The nerdgirl who has looked forward to the company of other nerds as the fulfillment of her dreams…

    Do you remember this scene in OSC’s /Lost Boys/?

    He had never been an athlete, part of the team or even part of a pickup game at school or in the neighborhood. His friends during his school years had always been girls. He liked the way they talked, he had things to say to them. And they didn’t despise him for being smart and getting good grades, they weren’t ashamed being smart themselves, and so they could talk about ideas in a way that he never heard guys talking about anything, as if they mattered, as if they cared. His only male friends during high school and on into college had been the few who were like him, who hung out with the smart girls.

    But these programmers were all male, and it was definitely a male kind of conversation, and yet there was none of that hierarchical one-upmanship that had made Step so uncomfortable with “the guys” in school. Or rather, there *was*, but it was centered around programming rather than athletics or cars, and on that playing field Step was a star…. Step *belonged*, and it felt good.

    Oh I see. So you never really wanted to be friends with *us* after all. And all your complaints about social rejection were *really* about just not being a *star*. Now that you have *male* friends, you can admit that all along we were just a poor substitute for what you *really* wanted. Excuse us for having *actually* valued you as friends and thought you valued our friendship as much as we did yours. Silly us, thinking we girls were just as valuable as boys! Oh and stupid us, feeling sorry for you in your social rejection when really you were just whining about not being on *top*!

    (And yes, part of this rant *is* the “geek social fallacy” (I disagree that it’s always nothing but a fallacy but hey that’s the name people recognize but still just saying) issue you mentioned. But part of it…is more than that.)

    And what about those of *us* who are interested in programming too? (Ed Realist points out that programming can often be done well using one’s *verbal* skill. I’m not just talking about high-M women, I’m talking about high-V women too. BTW my DH is a high-V programmer too.)

    What if we just want to program and not worry about having a “male kind of conversation”? Some of us may want to join a group that’s doing and discussing what we’re interested in…*without* having to exert extra effort to fit into a “male kind of conversation.” Meanwhile, some male nerds don’t want others coming into their “male kind of conversation” and changing the conversational style, even if those others share their interests. Both these wishes are reasonable–but both together will cause conflict.

    Which is what this is trying to discuss.

    I mean she’s not exactly doing a perfect job understanding the POV of those who have hurt her. She’s maybe not expressing her point as well as she could. But it is a real issue she’s discussing.

    (Search your feelings, you know it to be true.)

    (…I am actually a “…Trek” person, not a “…Wars” person. At all. However, in this particular case…😉 )

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    • You seem awfully mad at a fictional character.😉 Let’s suppose the situation were reversed–a tomboyish girl who loved soccer and never “fit in” with the other girls, (who just liked talking about makeup and movie stars,) and so always hung out with the boys in highschool, playing sports with them. Then she got into college on a soccer scholarship and was surrounded, for the first time, by other women who like sports, and was super happy to finally have a space where she felt like she fit in.

      Would the guys she hung out with back in highschool begrudge her current happiness on the grounds that it involves women instead of men?

      For that matter, what % of nerd men spent highschool hanging out mostly with women? Almost none of them–most women don’t want anything to do with nerdy men. That’s a large part of the whole reason this conversation exists–nerd men are used to getting rejected by women, ignored by women, having their hobbies mocked by women, etc., and now women are suddenly claiming that they are under-represented in nerd spaces because of the sins of nerds themselves.

      Let’s invert the linked essay as well; do female teachers reclaim femininity at the expense of male teachers?

      The essay is basically arguing that sciency people default to sciency arguments to explain human behavior, and that this is alienating to women because it doesn’t support the author’s political position. Even if the nerds are wrong, they are still just doing an essential nerd thing: defaulting to science.

      The vast, vast majority of STEM guys I have known don’t even believe that men perform better than women at high-end math. I don’t think they even think that much about such issues. All they care about is the math.

      Personally, I have never felt out of place in nerd spaces (including, of course, writers.) There are individuals I dislike or don’t get along with, but the % I do like and feel comfortable around is much higher than in any other group. But then, I don’t mind the greater-male-variability hypothesis. The hypothesis also explains the greater % of males in special ed classes, but I don’t see anyone claiming that this is offensive to men, or that men are hurting little boys by believing that they’re more likely to be retarded than little girls.

      I’d like to see the people who get worked up over math scores devote as much energy to helping disabled children as they invest in high IQ women who score just slightly lower than a few men.

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  2. WordPress removed my [teen-style-rant] tags. I can never remember which places remove faux-html and which don’t–sorry about that.😉

    That said, did you process the Tolan quote? I was channeling teenagers who have just been “disappointed almost beyond bearing.” So…yeah.

    (I feel like you wrote the rest of this without reading the rest of what I wrote. My jury is out on the greater-male-variability hypothesis because I’ve seen so much contradictory research on the topic… :longer discussion snipped for irrelevance: but it seems fair enough and I’m not on a crusade against it. Crusading against it was not my point.)

    “For that matter, what % of nerd men spent highschool hanging out mostly with women? Almost none of them–most women don’t want anything to do with nerdy men. That’s a large part of the whole reason this conversation exists–nerd men are used to getting rejected by women, ignored by women, having their hobbies mocked by women, etc., and now women are suddenly claiming that they are under-represented in nerd spaces because of the sins of nerds themselves.”

    …don’t they often say they’re used to being *friend-zoned*?

    The group who are, *would* fit the pattern OSC described. In his autobiographical novel.😉

    (And so do many high-g boys–and girls FTM–who wind up in studies. That they (paraphrase) “often befriend members of the opposite sex because these are less likely to reject them for their intellectual interests” is practically a cliche.)

    Are we talking about slightly different, if overlapping, groups?

    “I’d like to see the people who get worked up over math scores devote as much energy to helping disabled children as they invest in high IQ women who score just slightly lower than a few men.”

    This is a fiendishly socially ept thing to say to someone you already know is uncomfortable discussing specific scores.😉

    However, I have to disagree. A high IQ is just another special need, and all special-needs folks deserve support.

    “I don’t see anyone claiming that this is offensive to men, or that men are hurting little boys by believing that they’re more likely to be retarded than little girls.”

    Indeed there is a majority-male group who people do claim are harmed by the assumption that they are more likely to be retarded than another group. People sometimes leave off the “majority male” part, but often they do include it; but “majority male” is not the most salient thing about it.

    And in fact, the members of that group who are not retarded *are* harmed by that assumption, *even if their group really does have a higher percentage of retarded members than other groups*. Or at least, a fair number of them say they are, and I believe them.

    Going to the members of a given group who have succeeded in the current system, and then asking them, “What might be preventing more members of your group from succeeding?”, has tended to get answers like that. I touched on that here and here.

    “The theory” I mentioned there came from those successful-in-the-then-current-system types. IMO the tragic flaw of asking these successful, high-IQ people this question…is (was, when USA society in effect did that in the ’60s) that *they are right about what harmed them*, yet at the same time, what harmed them is *far from the only reason* their group gets different results representation-wise than other groups. So that changing society in the way they think would have helped them…does not (did not, when we tried it) “solve the problem” of their group’s differing representation.

    None of that changes the fact that these assumptions…do actually affect these high-IQ individuals.

    And it’s not just the assumptions either. In the comments I linked, I wasn’t talking about (and “the theory” doesn’t blame) just “assumptions” as the things high-IQ GI/silent-generation members said had harmed them. I/”the theory” was talking about–yes, underrepresentation.

    A group that organically grows up around an interest, by just attracting the type of people who tend to have that interest…will create a culture that reflects the characteristics of the majority of the group. Obvious, right? And some of these characteristics will be necessary results of the interest, as you said.

    My point is that some (not all, but some) will be incidental reflections of the population most likely to have that interest or talent. Which really does disproportionately affect the group of equally-interested and/or equally-talented people who are members of other populations which have different cultures and which may also have different patterns of personality traits.

    (Related semi-example: Have you seen the Jensen paper prominently linked on Ed Realist’s blog? It found that among Asian-American children in the ’70s, g was closely correlated with another mental ability that could be described as “memorization ability”…but among African-American children, the two were *not* very closely correlated. (“White” American children were in between.) So if you were to set up a study of these three populations that matched trios of subjects on g…the members of a trio would often have very different patterns of strengths and weaknesses. Might this lead to slightly different ways of thinking? Might the three kids sometimes feel like they were on “different wavelengths” even though they were the same on g?)

    I don’t have a solution to this problem. I do think it is a problem. We don’t need to set up a false dichotomy where calling this a problem means insisting on the falsity of the greater-male-variability hypothesis (or other group differences hypotheses FTM). That particular essay I linked does fall victim to such a false dichotomy, which makes it a worse essay IMO. But…she’s still discussing a real problem.

    Being vicious about it is clearly doing more harm than good, but I think the viciousness is mainly a result of frustration that the problem has turned out to be much harder to solve than anyone involved had assumed.

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    • My apologies for the late response (Things have been busy.) Unfortunately, things have gotten unwieldy, so I’m not sure exactly what your main point is. It is certainly possible that we are talking about slightly different but overlapping groups, or that we’ve just had wildly different experiences with members of arguably the same groups. It sounds to me like your argument is that you’d like to hang out with STEM guys, but STEM guys don’t want to hang out with you. This happens not to match my personal experiences with people in STEM, though I have encountered plenty of individuals, both within and without, whom I simply don’t like or don’t get along with.

      One of the best pieces of advice I have gotten on the subject of friendship, which I am going to mangle, is that when people don’t want to be friends with you or you feel like you have to try hard to win their approval or that you are hiding part of yourself or you’re anxious about the whole business, then fuck them, they aren’t your friends. Find people you do get along with.

      I know that is not always easy advice to follow, which is why I have heard it so many times. (And it isn’t relevant to things like employment and housing, which are necessities whether you like the people involved or not.)

      I confess, though, that I don’t exactly see the connection between this and the original bit you quoted, about people attacking folks like Scott Alexander and Scott Aaronsen. I don’t know about Aaronsen, but Alexander is pretty darn welcoming and tries to be fair to everyone.

      The central part of your comment is rather indirect; rather than guess at your meaning, I shall await clarification.

      Take care and all the best.🙂

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      • (No worries on delays–I also don’t have the time to always respond immediately. For example, I should really be sewing my niece’s birthday gift right now.😉 )

        My comments on this post aren’t really about me, so if you try to interpret them as if they were, you’ll have trouble deciphering my point. I’ll try to clarify…

        I guess my main point was that the people who are doing what you are annoyed by:

        “first you attack my people for something they aren’t guilty of, and then you refuse to defend women against the people actually raping them.”

        have actual reasons for what they are doing. There’s a real problem they’re trying to point out.

        I could add that they’ve made some factual errors which have been very harmful (including to people like me; see my comment on part 1), but that these errors are understandable given where they’re coming from; all they did is overgeneralize from their own experience.

        I’m not sure what’s unclear about the central part of my comment, so I don’t know how to clarify it. Did you follow the links to my SSC comments?

        Anyway, this: “[they]’d like to hang out with STEM guys, but STEM guys don’t want to hang out with [them]” is not the problem I’m talking about.

        Rather…some people have summarized the problem instead as, “They’d like to do STEM, but they don’t like STEM guys.”

        This is closer to the truth–it might just barely pass as an extreme oversimplification–but I’d still call it inaccurate. To get an *accurate* description, you have to get complicated and confusing. This and the previous comment are the best I can do, so I hope it’s enough.

        Using the above oversimplification as a base, I could extend it to: “This dislike is interfering with their ability to focus on and enjoy STEM, so they want STEM guys to change a little so they will dislike them less and be less distracted.” But that is still an extreme oversimplification…because the problem is *not* the individual people involved in STEM; it is the customs, norms, etc.–the general *culture*–of STEM.

        However, my larger point is that it’s not just women and STEM. It’s any underrepresented group and the field or hobby in which they’re underrepresented. I would describe this problem more generally as:

        They have natural ability and interest in [something], but the culture which has grown up around [thing] has incidental aspects which are offputting to their group. And only their group, which means that their group has one more obstacle to developing that talent or enjoying that hobby than do other groups.

        (I’m *really not talking about what any individual should do* if they find themselves in this situation. Some are going to “just do it on their own”; others are going to find another hobby whose enthusiasts tend to be people they like more; some will do both. None of that is my point; my point is about group differences and people’s reactions to them.)

        A problem for everyone–and one reason for the behavior you’re objecting to–is that people with this experience have mistakenly assumed that *that* obstacle to their developing their talents is the *only* obstacle to their group having exactly equal representation in that field or hobby. It isn’t (for example, the greater male variability hypothesis is another possible contributor in the case of women in STEM).

        What I’m saying, though, is that it *is* still *one* obstacle.

        “Underrepresentation is *the only* cause of underrepresentation, so we should break the cycle with affirmative action and then underrepresentation will end”–didn’t work.

        But “Underrepresentation causes problems for talented members of underrepresented groups, decreasing their representation still further”–is both true…and also *the reason people believed the first one*.

        IOW–they are not wrong about *every* thing just because they are wrong about *some* things. Policy debates should not appear one-sided and all that. (Thinking of the issue as one-sided is a mistake they do make. “We” shouldn’t make the same mistake.)

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  3. […] This was a little more navel gazy than usual, but Mrs. X definitely has some interesting stuff on actual autism spectrum disorders: The Big Bang Theory is not “My People”: aspies, tribalism, and the development of nerd politics. Like I’ve said, the development of the unpopular smart nerds vs. popular dumb jocks dynamic is a very recent cultural trope. It has little basis in human biology and I in fact have speculated that it may very well be a ((((Jedi)))) mind trick. The Professor was the smartest and most desirable man on Gilligan’s Island. More on the subject here. […]

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  4. “Some of the old Libertarians have decided that, essentially, we can’t use a meta-ethic of treating everyone equally if some people are starting from unequal positions–that everyone has to be brought to equal positions first, and then treated equally.”

    Wasnt that always the far left/socialist/communist position?

    It went to its furthest level in communist states were for instance in the early USSR members of “opressor classes” were denied education to “even out” the gap between “opressors” and “opressed” in education or forced to do unpaid hard physical labor to humiliate them and lower their self esteem and raise the self esteem of the “opressed”, among other laws that privileged “the opressed” and degraded former “opressor groups”.

    One can also think of the early bolshevik national politics, for instance Bucharins proclamation that Russian national pride is far worst then the national pride of smaller peoples because the Russians are a colonising opressive nation while smaller nations pride is just directed towards preserving their independance and resisting imperialism?

    Its strange that some of modern liberalism has reached this level now.

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